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Straight to predrifts or 2 hand tonys for sending it starters?

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    I have had great success (borat voice) with taking my friends out to learn toeside predrifts grabing rail as their very first slide. Super short term, as in first 2-3 sessions, they likey fell more doing predrifts because of the initially harder to execute concepts of "ok time to kick out that back leg yet keep most weight forward" and "keep your eyes on the exit of the slide" etc.

    But once learned, WAY less overall falling and quicker progression resulted from skiping 2 hands down toesides because:

    Starting with 2 hand tony's then learing predrifts is basically just falling the amount you would have learning predrifts first but with extra falling previous to doing so since very little skill/knowledge transfers over from 2 hand tonys if any.

    It is likely a starter would actually fall more when they do actually start to learn predrifts after learning 2 hand tonys since they now have bad muscle memory and conflicting information on the correct way to slide.


    In my area if someone knows they want to start dh, a 2 hand tony will never be taught. What do y'all think?

     

     

    If someone is on the edge about dh thats a different story and the easiest possible way into the sport (2 hand tony) is the way to go.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • c

    I disagree, and here's why. Let's put ourselves in the shoes of a downhill beginner.

    You've just learned sick toeside predrifts, and it's time to throw down. You kick off and start heading down the hill. You've got some confidence after hitting this 10 times in a row without falling. You lean in, grab rail, and start your kick-out. But the sun has just gone behind the hill and the pavement is suddenly much grippier than the last run. Or maybe you kicked out too early. Or maybe your back foot was misplaced. You can't tell because you're a beginner. So you kick out and you get a tiny check with a hard hookup, and your board carves way harder than you wanted.

    You don't fall off your board but you have to pop up, catch your balance, and point the board back down the hill. By the time you re-orient yourself from your near miss, you're going 10 mph faster than you are comfortable with and you're still accelerating. Your adrenaline is pumping from almost getting chucked off your board and you're starting to panic. You want off the ride - you didn't sign up for this kind of speed and the feeling of highsiding is fresh in your mind.

    In this situation, you need a very safe shutdown slide you have no possibility of failing even with terrible technique and while panicking. Two hand tonys are good to start with because you can always rely on them to come to a stop while you're working on more technical stuff. You'll very quickly transition to coleman pendys, but to keep it under control for those first few sessions you should know the tried and true pushup slide.

    Rocket Leon V2 • Aera K6 42/30 • freeride wheels
    LY Freedive • Cal 3 raked 44 • primos
    S9 Shoots • sidewinders • Kegels
    2011 Dervish • V1 or V2 Bear 852 • Gravity hi-grades

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @cstik I have to personally disagree with this sentiment for a few reasons:

    The first is, I disagree with the idea that 2 hand tonys are safer at all, they are way less stable, their argued benifit that I have heard is, if they are easier slower, since you have less weight on the board and more on your hands. It's harder to have your feet in the right spot compared to a predrift so the chance of litteraly lowside falling off your board with feet on the rails or by feet too far over the middle and the board flipping, is much higher.

    They are only easier to initiate at a very slow speed, over a speed you can't run off your board carefree, they start to become harder and harder in comparison to predrifts. Imagine trying to lean over to slam your pucks into the ground at that speed....lots of things can go wrong. Before even getting hands on the ground starters in your senario are much more liable to get wobs since natural 2 hand tony form feels very 50-50 in weight distribution. Aditionally at medium speeds if the slamming down of the pucks doesn't mess you up or potential wobs doesn't get you, you may not even get the chance to kick it out, when you get a little faster, your board doesn't want to change direction as much, and a skater any level can have a tough time getting the board to go the desired direction, which can include not siding ever or sliding 180 and getting stuck like that. (Here's a vid of myself having messed up badly on a toe and trying to 2 hand as a last ditch effort when I would have been better off just ditching the board, as well as another person doing the same in the first clip) Also the extra slideyness is more likley to have a starter slide way off course for longer, and the option of basicly going for it and recovering from a issue by gripping up properly disapears since you cant really end a 2 hand tony without being super super slow. Link to talented buddy on his 3rd session ever with instructions to lean forward more and go with it if wheels grip up early.

    Lastly, falling a medium speed is better than falling at a fast speed, 2 hand tonys very fast are even harder, and even if more mid speed falling was involved in getting the right skills under your belt quickly to avoid falling at a faster speed, it would be worth it.

     

    Excuse any poor spelling even more than usual etc. I'm half asleep.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • c

    I'm not arguing the usefulness of pushup slides at speeds, only their usefulness for beginners at speeds beginnners might panic. I personally have found them very safe up to 35 as they were my dedicated shutdown for a long time.

    I do agree you should quickly move to a point where you have an array of good shutdown options you can do with proper form and low risk. But for beginners without proper form, I think pushup slides are appropriate.

    For the video you posted about putting two hands down and still highsiding, I hate to say it but if you had done a proper pushup slide you would have survived that one. You tried to keep a predrift (shoulders forward) but with two hands down rather than abandoning the turn and doing a shutdown. For a higher level rider like you this might have been the right choice, but for a beginner the ability to stand back up and try again without a bunch of road rash is very powerful.

    I'm gonna teach you pushups on Wednesday lol

    Also your forum needs a quote feature so people can respond directly to parts of others' posts. It will make more nuanced conversations like this easier.

    Rocket Leon V2 • Aera K6 42/30 • freeride wheels
    LY Freedive • Cal 3 raked 44 • primos
    S9 Shoots • sidewinders • Kegels
    2011 Dervish • V1 or V2 Bear 852 • Gravity hi-grades

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @cstik 

    I'm not arguing the usefulness of pushup slides at speeds, only their usefulness for beginners at speeds beginnners might panic. 

    We're on the same page here about understanding your stance, some of my position is strengthened in my mind by the effect on above starter speeds that pushups provide, but everything else I said is why I would hold the same stance even for someone who was to never go over 30.

    I personally have found them very safe up to 35 as they were my dedicated shutdown for a long time.

    I feel that if you learned predrifts first and that became the first thing to flash into your mind when needing to slow down, you would have a safer time shutting down that way, compared to having pushups being the backup.

    I hate to say it but if you had done a proper pushup slide you would have survived that one

    Only brought that up because of this:

     very safe shutdown slide have no possibility of failing even with terrible technique 

    But it makes sense that video wouldn't support my point of "if you compare someone doing predrifts at the same skill level as 2 hands down, the predrift will feel safer" isn't really supported since I don't have the full 2 hand stance.

     

     

    Also your forum needs a quote feature so people can respond directly to parts of others' posts. It will make more nuanced conversations like this easier.

    I'll make a how to, its not intuative.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • GF

    Two hand tony is kind of a double edged sword. When learning it's easier than a grab toe drift, but it gets you really far off the deck. When you're experienced and stay more on top, the second hand is kind of an ironic swaggy move. 

    As far as learning, I think its good to learn both. Grab toe shutdown is going to be harder to learn, and learning a two hand pendy as a shutdown is a good idea (see that first reply about panic sliding).

    I see a two hand tony as the toe equivalent of a coleman. A coleman and a heel predrift are two different slides imo, used in different scenarios. It's good to have both in the bag. Same rationale for two hand tony. 

    I've also seen some competent but not amazing riders get by exclusively with two hand toe, so it isn't the death sentence that OP is describing. Is it ideal? Not entirely, but it works. 

    Current setups:
    Custom rhino racetail, Zealous,thaners
    Rayne bromance, aera k5, powells

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @Gabriel Fockler The really far off the board is exactly what I argue proves to be dangerous, and I beleive that after the inital learning of toesides and if you choose to, 2 hand tonys, toesides are easier. I strongly beleive if they were learned first there would be no reason to learn them ever.  

    If they had the same amount of time spent on them I think a toeside shutdown would be a better panic slide, personally.

    Colemans don't particularly need to be "kicked out" same as two hand tonys, and are a similar level of ease, but else than that I don't see many similaritys.

    For full senders, I do like the idea of teaching heelside predrifts before colemans on hills that don't let you catch much speed no matter what, so the less desirable, easier to learn initiation technique that colemans allow does not have to be overwriten, but that's another story, and way less detremental compared to 2 hand tonys. 

    A shutdown toeside is comparable to a coleman, I feel 2 hand tonys are a seperate thing completely.

    hand toe, so it isn't the death sentence that OP is describing

    Photo recreation of a 2 hand toe pictured below.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • GF

    You can do a 2 hand tony with weight on the board. You don't have to do them full pushup. Sounds like a skill issue if you can't do a two hand tony and lose speed ;)

    Current setups:
    Custom rhino racetail, Zealous,thaners
    Rayne bromance, aera k5, powells

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @Gabriel Fockler Fake news + weight on board 2 hand tony means kickflip mode + toesides arn't even real anyway + daniel doesn't even do them at like 35 I swear

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • CR

    @cstik id argue they ruin form, too properly place ur weight with two hands down is going to prove to be a LOT more challenging then grabbing rail and throwing ur weight the right way. two hands can be great to understand breaking traction but i think there's a clear reason we don't see two hands in any skillful level of riding. also if you don't have good toeside form (my self included) a two hand is just going to ice because u are putting more weight off the board and driving the slide sideways, i would say it's more intuitive too two hand tony because it's inert nature to slide due to the weight placement two hands give, but overall toeside pre drift/pendy would be the most beneficial too learn.

  • AC

    theoretically speaking, everyone should try to master all the essential starter slides and be able to perform all of them with an adequate technical prowess. learn all slides and get good at everyone of those individually so that you can pull em straight outta your ass in any situation. two hand tony or predrift, both just know how to utilise em both efficiently enough to not eat shit when you get into any sketchy situation. dont two hand tony off a cliff and dont predrift into a car. understand the friction between the wheels you are using and the pavement your'e skating.

  • TL

    Frankly, I'm a downright hater for push-up slides. They are functionally not applicable to any other slide, and the only thing you might be able to say you get out of them is the feeling of sliding. You can't make them work at high speeds, and the form you learn does not positively benefit you at all. Additionally, I find it more intuitive to progress from learning how to turn, to going to predrifts, because you maintain the form between the two. Unlike push ups, it doesn't require some level of commitment to putting both hands down, because you can start doing predrifts by simply just turning hard with weight on your puck. Finally, it is not a useful slide to learn at all, there is no ability to recover out of the slide unlike a predrift, which can be easily adapted to shutdown unlike a push-up slide which cannot go vice versa. Overall, it's just a less intuitive slide, with less use cases, and less functionality as a building block for further progression.

  • MM

    @cstik 100% agree Coleman's are good but require more weight on the board and therefore more room on the road and fineness. Tony's are perfect for shutting down with limited room (even if it destroys your wheels) also helpful for catching yourself when you low side on toe standys (less pressure on either wrist when using both, and if you're already icing out good form is usually out the window and max stability/ lifting power is optimal to save a potential fall)

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  • GF

    I want to go film some good two handers with weight on the board still to put this "they are useless" talk to bed. 

    Current setups:
    Custom rhino racetail, Zealous,thaners
    Rayne bromance, aera k5, powells

  • Trent Teter

    @Matt Needs Wheels I love doing two hand Tony's, can't relate 

    Landyachts Charlie horse, K5 164, drifts
    Madrid wendigo, bear Smokey’s, kevos or grippy wheel

  • Kurt Derow

    This is a tough one. I agree that they ruin the progression for learning actual predrifts. It's a whole different slide to grab rail. 
    that being said, it's also just the easiest slide, and if it gets people to feel the awesomeness that is drifting and get them hooked then it's good no?

    as far as usefulness goes, I'd say it's a higher level technique to do a proper two hand tony when raging a mountain. 
    where's a Superman is just a training wheels kind of skid.

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @Gabriel Fockler it looks like @Trenton Teter beat you to it. I feel this is a little different than a clasicly taught 2 hand tony style of "just throw your hands and weight at the ground and aim back up the hill real fast" with no mention of, "weight on front foot, shoulders square with where you are going, and use that back leg to kick out etc."

    Whis is less avoidable in a predrift, and easier to teach as a predrift imo.

    Trent if you kept the same posture but kept the other hand off the ground, would you still be able to do that slide fine? How I envision that slide got initiated is very close to a classic predrift. 

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    @Kurt Derow I agree with 100% of what you said, if anyone said "hm maybe I'll try DH" there's no way I'm teaching them predrifts first, they take too much comitment for the initial little reward at first for someone who is not 100% wanting to learn- which btw is why I think lots of learning to skate clinics etc still teach them; it can be hard to gauge how comitted people you don't know really are. And over a 1 month period someone doing 2 hand tonys is gonna have a way better time than someone who's learning propper form.

    But with someone who I know will get through that extra initial hardship I'm gonna have them do predrifts, since over a 6 month period they will fall less, more of their falls will be at a slower speed, and they will advance quicker since they skip having to learn a unnessisary thing, and avoid making the inevitable proper form development even harder since they have to break the muscle memory they created on those supermans/2 hand tonys.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • Matt Needs Wheels

    This is my thinking, in graph form.

    I just work here man (wrongboarding)

  • Kurt Derow

    @Matt Needs Wheels I'm definitly the purple graph. It took my so long to learn grab rail toeside predrifts. And like you said in the first comment about gripping up and going way to fast, that almost ended my Downhill journey because I dislocated my shoulder hitting a wall. To real..

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  • Trent Teter

    @Matt Needs Wheels 100% it's essentially a rail grab position for a toe side predict and then I just use my core more and transfer my hand over to the inside pavement. You can even grab inside rail if you're feeling froggy

    Landyachts Charlie horse, K5 164, drifts
    Madrid wendigo, bear Smokey’s, kevos or grippy wheel

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